Comments on: Oracle Making Strides in BPM http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/ Bruce Silver's blog on business process management Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:36:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: CraigH http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2505 CraigH Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:37:11 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2505 Thanks for the info Vishal, but we were told by Oracle representatives both at the time and in a couple of post-POC reviews that this was how it had been designed in order to fit with the Oracle Fusion development methodology. Certainly none of the half-dozen Oracle people we had onsite were aware that it was just a config setting. Given the scale of the changes that were necessary in the BPEL to implement the necessary roles and skill-based work assignments I'm really curious to see how the system translates these back into EPC (we were only shown EPC for modelling). The resulting BPEL was <em>very</em> different from the original EPC model. Regarding the decision about whether the business should allow IT to change the model, we have always planned for a co-operative model, since the final process map needs to reflect not only the real business process but also the realities and limitations of the underlying IT systems, including the BPEL engine. One would assume that IT would only change the model if it was necessary in order to implement the desired process efficiently. It seems silly, not to mention error-prone, to then force the business/process analysts to have to re-enter the IT changes manually using a different tool and different notation. Thanks for the info Vishal, but we were told by Oracle representatives both at the time and in a couple of post-POC reviews that this was how it had been designed in order to fit with the Oracle Fusion development methodology. Certainly none of the half-dozen Oracle people we had onsite were aware that it was just a config setting.

Given the scale of the changes that were necessary in the BPEL to implement the necessary roles and skill-based work assignments I’m really curious to see how the system translates these back into EPC (we were only shown EPC for modelling). The resulting BPEL was very different from the original EPC model.

Regarding the decision about whether the business should allow IT to change the model, we have always planned for a co-operative model, since the final process map needs to reflect not only the real business process but also the realities and limitations of the underlying IT systems, including the BPEL engine.

One would assume that IT would only change the model if it was necessary in order to implement the desired process efficiently. It seems silly, not to mention error-prone, to then force the business/process analysts to have to re-enter the IT changes manually using a different tool and different notation.

]]> By: Vishal http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2502 Vishal Sun, 21 Oct 2007 02:27:38 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2502 Responding to CraigH 's comment: It is a user configurable option. Whether to allow IT users to update the business users's BPMN diagram is a decision that each customer needs to make. Pl take a look at http://vishals.blogspot.com/2007/10/bpmn-diagram-updates-who-owns-business.html for real world feedback on this. Responding to CraigH ’s comment: It is a user configurable option. Whether to allow IT users to update the business users’s BPMN diagram is a decision that each customer needs to make. Pl take a look at http://vishals.blogspot.com/2007/10/bpmn-diagram-updates-who-owns-business.html for real world feedback on this.

]]> By: bradburyn http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2346 bradburyn Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:19:33 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2346 OpenSoft has just gone through the current Intalio BPMS 5.0.x offering including the 5.0.1 beta designer and the BPEL Engine server. It was interesting reading CraigH comments as we implement and support oracle and intalio in the BPM space. After having gone through the new designer and bpel server of Intalio, it is truly a platform that both BA's and IT personnel can really collaborate without the issues that CraigH has indicated with a lot of power in the tool sets that really stack up to do just about anything any one wants to. Comments that Oracle offers a platform that is a standards based solution is interesting as from what I have seen Intalio has an upper hand on standard's at the moment, though things change quickly. OpenSoft has just gone through the current Intalio BPMS 5.0.x offering including the 5.0.1 beta designer and the BPEL Engine server.

It was interesting reading CraigH comments as we implement and support oracle and intalio in the BPM space.

After having gone through the new designer and bpel server of Intalio, it is truly a platform that both BA’s and IT personnel can really collaborate without the issues that CraigH has indicated with a lot of power in the tool sets that really stack up to do just about anything any one wants to.

Comments that Oracle offers a platform that is a standards based solution is interesting as from what I have seen Intalio has an upper hand on standard’s at the moment, though things change quickly.

]]> By: CraigH http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2271 CraigH Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:04:37 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2271 Having just gone through a POC with Oracle I have to say that the round-tripping definitely does <em>not</em> work as advertised. Changes made to the BPEL in JDeveloper appear to the BAs in BPA (i.e. ARIS) as a comment saying more or less "something has changed", and the BAs need to then speak to the developers and manually make the (hopefully) equivalent changes to the model. When the new version is then deployed back to BPEL the developers' previous changes (e.g. integration points, scripting) can get completely lost and have to be redone from scratch. It's a nice vision but right now they are a long way from actually delivering it. A shame, since the individual components on their own are excellent, especially the BAM. Having just gone through a POC with Oracle I have to say that the round-tripping definitely does not work as advertised. Changes made to the BPEL in JDeveloper appear to the BAs in BPA (i.e. ARIS) as a comment saying more or less “something has changed”, and the BAs need to then speak to the developers and manually make the (hopefully) equivalent changes to the model. When the new version is then deployed back to BPEL the developers’ previous changes (e.g. integration points, scripting) can get completely lost and have to be redone from scratch.

It’s a nice vision but right now they are a long way from actually delivering it. A shame, since the individual components on their own are excellent, especially the BAM.

]]> By: Vishal http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2169 Vishal Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:09:17 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2169 Pl take a close look at what end users need out of a BPM solution. A well integrated standards based solution or another properietary solution, which will lead to a futur integration sore point. Oracle offering is that standards based solution! Pl take a close look at what end users need out of a BPM solution. A well integrated standards based solution or another properietary solution, which will lead to a futur integration sore point. Oracle offering is that standards based solution!

]]> By: edwink http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2164 edwink Wed, 15 Aug 2007 04:04:00 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2164 The work Baghat and the rest of his team have done over the last 18 months is indeed very impressive. It is interesting to see all the pieces come together pre-integrated. Good report! Note: It might be great to get permission from vendors to capture screencasts and videos and embed them in this blog. Best, Edwin The work Baghat and the rest of his team have done over the last 18 months is indeed very impressive. It is interesting to see all the pieces come together pre-integrated. Good report!

Note: It might be great to get permission from vendors to capture screencasts and videos and embed them in this blog.

Best,
Edwin

]]> By: royroebuck http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2162 royroebuck Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:42:50 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2162 I am looking for BPMN compliance with full interoperability, including layout, across multiple modeling tools, supporting executable models in multiple BPM suites. I am looking for BPMN compliance with full interoperability, including layout, across multiple modeling tools, supporting executable models in multiple BPM suites.

]]> By: links for 2007-08-07 « steinarcarlsen http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2151 links for 2007-08-07 « steinarcarlsen Tue, 07 Aug 2007 21:19:15 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2151 [...] Oracle Making Strides in BPM (tags: oracle bpm bpmn bpel cx) [...] [...] Oracle Making Strides in BPM (tags: oracle bpm bpmn bpel cx) [...]

]]> By: giancarlo.costa http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2137 giancarlo.costa Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:14:41 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/08/01/oracle-making-strides-in-bpm/#comment-2137 Dear Bruce, it looks like Intalio is definitely pulling the BPM market. I found your description of ORACLE BPM suite very close to Ismael Ghalimi's BPM2.0 prescriptions. (http://itredux.com/blog/bpm-20/). I welcome this as good news: reaching a consensus on the high-level BPM model should help reducing the hype and develop a customer-focused BPM culture. Kind Regards Giancarlo Dear Bruce,

it looks like Intalio is definitely pulling the BPM market. I found your description of ORACLE BPM suite very close to Ismael Ghalimi’s BPM2.0 prescriptions. (http://itredux.com/blog/bpm-20/).

I welcome this as good news: reaching a consensus on the high-level BPM model should help reducing the hype and develop a customer-focused BPM culture.

Kind Regards

Giancarlo

]]>