Comments on: What Makes a BPMS “Good”? http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/ Bruce Silver's blog on business process management Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:27:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: rlogg http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1369 rlogg Sat, 14 Apr 2007 13:36:26 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1369 Bruce, good list. Some area's I miss... An area on the professional services sides would be training. Training capabilities for a BPM-S vendor are critical, I think. Another area is BPM Methodology. Does the vendor have some approach/model/best practices for BPM projects. Some loose thoughts: - Support for Work time Calender (e.g. when delaying tasks for X workdays, skip weekends and official holidays). Also very handy for Simulations! - Integration with LDAP/User Profile Database Regards, Roeland Loggen Bruce, good list.

Some area’s I miss…

An area on the professional services sides would be training. Training capabilities for a BPM-S vendor are critical, I think.

Another area is BPM Methodology. Does the vendor have some approach/model/best practices for BPM projects.

Some loose thoughts:
- Support for Work time Calender (e.g. when delaying tasks for X workdays, skip weekends and official holidays). Also very handy for Simulations!
- Integration with LDAP/User Profile Database

Regards,
Roeland Loggen

]]> By: mgaedwards http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1296 mgaedwards Mon, 09 Apr 2007 12:38:05 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1296 Bruce, you address "Role based access control and authorization" in Section 10. I don't kniow how far you intend to look at it, but I'd like to see discussions of a plugable Access Management interface, or the ability to Customize Access Management through a WebService or something like that. Access Management usually implies access to resources and entitlements, but that can leave questions about data access in limbo. What if two distinct companies or organization are using the system. How does the BPMS prevent data from one company from being viewed from another, even though they may have similar roles. (Eagely awaiting your 2007 report) Bruce, you address “Role based access control and authorization” in Section 10. I don’t kniow how far you intend to look at it, but I’d like to see discussions of a plugable Access Management interface, or the ability to Customize Access Management through a WebService or something like that. Access Management usually implies access to resources and entitlements, but that can leave questions about data access in limbo. What if two distinct companies or organization are using the system. How does the BPMS prevent data from one company from being viewed from another, even though they may have similar roles. (Eagely awaiting your 2007 report)

]]> By: SteveIreland http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1207 SteveIreland Fri, 06 Apr 2007 17:07:57 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1207 Bruce, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. I've been looking at BPM as a modeling approach to help bridge the communications gap between business and IT, but it seems that there is a strong inclination by the object oriented development community to co-opt it as an SOA modeling notation. Did UML never provide the rigor that was needed? I hope that BPM will retain its "business friendly" characteristics - or at least that the tools will NOT require programmer level expertise just to design the models. I'm still catching up - trying to get my hands around the business value - so your contributions both here and at the BMN Institute have been invaluable. Keep on educating! Bruce, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. I’ve been looking at BPM as a modeling approach to help bridge the communications gap between business and IT, but it seems that there is a strong inclination by the object oriented development community to co-opt it as an SOA modeling notation. Did UML never provide the rigor that was needed? I hope that BPM will retain its “business friendly” characteristics - or at least that the tools will NOT require programmer level expertise just to design the models.

I’m still catching up - trying to get my hands around the business value - so your contributions both here and at the BMN Institute have been invaluable.

Keep on educating!

]]> By: icube http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1176 icube Thu, 05 Apr 2007 23:01:06 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1176 a good Market driven list ;) but when i have Pattern 15 with sub order parallel process with various asynchron and synchron paths i use jbpm ;) , they have a good dynamic dsl flow diagram tool lool where is semantic concerns in your list ? bpm joke : when two BPM specialists have a talk they generaly do not agree about their diagrams arguing, redefinning terms they use and finaly use pen and paper ;) when Two mathematicians talk they exchange foumulas and mathml and have time to laught about poor bpm semantic papers making jokes about bpm specialists ;) pushing you to your best a good Market driven list ;)
but when i have Pattern 15 with sub order parallel process with various asynchron and synchron paths i use jbpm ;) , they have a good dynamic dsl flow diagram tool lool

where is semantic concerns in your list ?

bpm joke : when two BPM specialists have a talk they generaly do not agree about their diagrams arguing, redefinning terms they use and finaly use pen and paper ;)
when Two mathematicians talk they exchange foumulas and mathml and have time to laught about poor bpm semantic papers making jokes about bpm specialists ;)

pushing you to your best

]]> By: Sandy Kemsley http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1001 Sandy Kemsley Mon, 02 Apr 2007 00:49:21 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-1001 Phil: "how I should suggest we manipulate the list to fit my interests better" -- LOL! Phil: “how I should suggest we manipulate the list to fit my interests better” — LOL!

]]> By: phil_ayres http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-995 phil_ayres Sun, 01 Apr 2007 16:54:17 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-995 Bruce, This is an extensive list, which really shows how broad the BPM space is, spanning the spectrum from fully automated Web Services process orchestration and Enterprise Service Buses through modeling, simulation, rules, human centric through to content based systems. I think that in soliciting comments you are going to highlight every individual vendor's bias, and the single differentiating feature they feel they have over a threatening competitor. Which will risk pulling your list down to the checklist level that we all expect and dislike. And that's why your list is good as it stands. Its not too granular - so it enables you to position systems in an appropriate space so that organizations can really shortlist the systems they should look at for their requirements. And in doing so, the BPM buyer can decide themselves whether this standard is more important that that standard, but only once they have decided the type of BPMS best fits their business objectives. I'm looking forward to spending a little time looking through this list to see how the Global 360 products fit, and how I should suggest we manipulate the list to fit my interests better (just joking!!!). Nice work. Phil Bruce,

This is an extensive list, which really shows how broad the BPM space is, spanning the spectrum from fully automated Web Services process orchestration and Enterprise Service Buses through modeling, simulation, rules, human centric through to content based systems.

I think that in soliciting comments you are going to highlight every individual vendor’s bias, and the single differentiating feature they feel they have over a threatening competitor. Which will risk pulling your list down to the checklist level that we all expect and dislike.

And that’s why your list is good as it stands. Its not too granular - so it enables you to position systems in an appropriate space so that organizations can really shortlist the systems they should look at for their requirements. And in doing so, the BPM buyer can decide themselves whether this standard is more important that that standard, but only once they have decided the type of BPMS best fits their business objectives.

I’m looking forward to spending a little time looking through this list to see how the Global 360 products fit, and how I should suggest we manipulate the list to fit my interests better (just joking!!!).

Nice work.

Phil

]]> By: pellingh http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-940 pellingh Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:05:49 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-940 Quite right...I knew there were a lot of these WS-* Standards, but looking at this chart made me realize that it has already become virtually impossible to keep track of them all. Question remains - although not exactly in the context of this posting - how we should approach the Standards issue. How best to apply a 'selective pragmatism' that will help us single out the essential ones and neglect others. One a general note, Thanks for this most interesting blog of yours. Regards Paul Quite right…I knew there were a lot of these WS-* Standards, but looking at this chart made me realize that it has already become virtually impossible to keep track of them all.

Question remains - although not exactly in the context of this posting - how we should approach the Standards issue. How best to apply a ’selective pragmatism’ that will help us single out the essential ones and neglect others.

One a general note, Thanks for this most interesting blog of yours.

Regards

Paul

]]> By: bruce http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-934 bruce Fri, 30 Mar 2007 14:51:17 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-934 From looking at your chart, I'm really glad I just said "support for standards" and not "support for WS-* standards". Does anybody take that chart seriously? For BPM, I sure don't. From looking at your chart, I’m really glad I just said “support for standards” and not “support for WS-* standards”. Does anybody take that chart seriously? For BPM, I sure don’t.

]]> By: pellingh http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-930 pellingh Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:30:23 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-930 On the aspect of WS-* standards support, this Web Services Standards Overview might come in handy: http://www.innoq.com/resources/ws-standards-poster/ Looking at that overview, I'm asking myself what we actually mean when we talk about supporting WS-* standards... On the aspect of WS-* standards support, this Web Services Standards Overview might come in handy:

http://www.innoq.com/resources/ws-standards-poster/

Looking at that overview, I’m asking myself what we actually mean when we talk about supporting WS-* standards…

]]> By: bruce http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-883 bruce Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:01:38 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2007/03/27/what-makes-a-bpms-good/#comment-883 Thanks Sandy for the chance to elaborate. The purpose of the reports is to create a short list of BPMS products to bring in for the POC, customer reference due diligence, and cost discussion. The information is mostly based on product documentation, supplemented by briefings and direct questioning of the vendors, a few demos (usually at vendor's insistence). I've done these before using a POC-style creation of my process using the tool. With today's system architectures, that's difficult and expensive, and I think actually puts more emphasis on toy applications than what you can glean from the documentation... but maybe that's self-serving. Thanks also for your response to Hans. The one thing I would add is that B2B support (EDI, trading partner gateways etc) is commonly provided by integration-centric BPMS vendors (IBM, webMethods, Vitria, etc) but I agree often not marketed as part of the suite or integrated with the BPMS tooling. I'm a bit on the fence whether to include that or not. Thanks Sandy for the chance to elaborate. The purpose of the reports is to create a short list of BPMS products to bring in for the POC, customer reference due diligence, and cost discussion. The information is mostly based on product documentation, supplemented by briefings and direct questioning of the vendors, a few demos (usually at vendor’s insistence).

I’ve done these before using a POC-style creation of my process using the tool. With today’s system architectures, that’s difficult and expensive, and I think actually puts more emphasis on toy applications than what you can glean from the documentation… but maybe that’s self-serving.

Thanks also for your response to Hans. The one thing I would add is that B2B support (EDI, trading partner gateways etc) is commonly provided by integration-centric BPMS vendors (IBM, webMethods, Vitria, etc) but I agree often not marketed as part of the suite or integrated with the BPMS tooling. I’m a bit on the fence whether to include that or not.

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