Comments on: What’s Wrong With This Picture, Redux http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/ Bruce Silver's blog on business process management Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:33:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: The Diagram IS the Meaning « Go Flow http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-685 The Diagram IS the Meaning « Go Flow Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:06:49 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-685 [...] Why can’t all products interpret the BPMN in the same way? This is another of Bruce’s concerns. Why can’t there be a single dialect of BPMN? Please stay tuned for my next post. [...] [...] Why can’t all products interpret the BPMN in the same way? This is another of Bruce’s concerns. Why can’t there be a single dialect of BPMN? Please stay tuned for my next post. [...]

]]> By: rainer http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-681 rainer Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:32:59 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-681 Bruce, this is late, but just a word of thanks for your insightful analysis upon which i have only just stumbled. It encapsulates a great deal of the frustrations encountered in my (as yet early) learnings of business process modeling from the business analysts perspective using the BPMN. The irony of vendors claiming that non-technical analysts won't "get" BPMN is quite laughable. I have only been dabbling with the Tibco and Intalio tools and they make me tear my hair out. I'm a little dismayed to learn from your post that the other tools don't fare any better wrt BPMN spec compliance. Bruce, this is late, but just a word of thanks for your insightful analysis upon which i have only just stumbled. It encapsulates a great deal of the frustrations encountered in my (as yet early) learnings of business process modeling from the business analysts perspective using the BPMN. The irony of vendors claiming that non-technical analysts won’t “get” BPMN is quite laughable. I have only been dabbling with the Tibco and Intalio tools and they make me tear my hair out. I’m a little dismayed to learn from your post that the other tools don’t fare any better wrt BPMN spec compliance.

]]> By: bruce http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-325 bruce Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:07:34 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-325 Stutz, Yes you are correct, and I guess I was also correct in my original statement, that an intermediate event cannot be a merge. In my copy of the spec (OMG 2006-02-01) it is on p.48. Stutz,
Yes you are correct, and I guess I was also correct in my original statement, that an intermediate event cannot be a merge. In my copy of the spec (OMG 2006-02-01) it is on p.48.

]]> By: stutz_itpcommerce http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-323 stutz_itpcommerce Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:10:44 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-323 Bruce, I really like your blog! Just a little detail concerning intermediate events: They can according to spec p61 neither be a merge nor a split. Bruce,

I really like your blog!
Just a little detail concerning intermediate events: They can according to spec p61 neither be a merge nor a split.

]]> By: bruce http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-320 bruce Mon, 11 Dec 2006 04:49:32 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-320 Marlon, You got me! Yes you and Appian are correct and I am wrong about the gateway that can be both a decision and a merge. And I think I was also incorrect somewhere else where I said that an intermediate event cannot be a merge -- the spec in fact does not say that, so I suppose wherever multiple uncontrolled flows into an activity would be lagal, an intermediate event in place of the activity would also be legal. And... since I'm reading over p70 of the spec, I see something else. I say in my training it is illegal to use a gateway as the start of a process (in place of start event), but that's apparently allowed as well. I think all of these legal constructions are probably not best practice (if broad understanding is the goal), but legal. Thanks for pointing out my errors. Marlon,
You got me! Yes you and Appian are correct and I am wrong about the gateway that can be both a decision and a merge. And I think I was also incorrect somewhere else where I said that an intermediate event cannot be a merge — the spec in fact does not say that, so I suppose wherever multiple uncontrolled flows into an activity would be lagal, an intermediate event in place of the activity would also be legal.

And… since I’m reading over p70 of the spec, I see something else. I say in my training it is illegal to use a gateway as the start of a process (in place of start event), but that’s apparently allowed as well.

I think all of these legal constructions are probably not best practice (if broad understanding is the goal), but legal.

Thanks for pointing out my errors.

]]> By: marlon_dumas http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-318 marlon_dumas Mon, 11 Dec 2006 01:48:44 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-318 I also wanted to react to your comment that vendors find it quixotic that you would seek to teach business analysts how to use things like gateways and events correctly. Well, they should start waking up to reality! We've been doing exactly this for already a year here in Australia, and people have been very receptive. And I'm talking about real business people, with no knowledge whatsoever of software development in any way. We even get into event-based decision gateways, and when we do so, people say, "Hey, we should use this feature in this or that process model!" In fact, some of our customers had previously undergone other BPMN training courses where there was no mention of gateways and events. And when they saw that gateways and events existed, they quickly appreciated that they could capture so many new nuances with them. It makes them think more deeply about their processes, and that's precisely one of the key outcomes that process modelling is meant to achieve. It is indeed about time that vendors realise that people are looking for a bit more than boxes and arrows. I also wanted to react to your comment that vendors find it quixotic that you would seek to teach business analysts how to use things like gateways and events correctly. Well, they should start waking up to reality! We’ve been doing exactly this for already a year here in Australia, and people have been very receptive. And I’m talking about real business people, with no knowledge whatsoever of software development in any way. We even get into event-based decision gateways, and when we do so, people say, “Hey, we should use this feature in this or that process model!”
In fact, some of our customers had previously undergone other BPMN training courses where there was no mention of gateways and events. And when they saw that gateways and events existed, they quickly appreciated that they could capture so many new nuances with them. It makes them think more deeply about their processes, and that’s precisely one of the key outcomes that process modelling is meant to achieve.
It is indeed about time that vendors realise that people are looking for a bit more than boxes and arrows.

]]> By: marlon_dumas http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-316 marlon_dumas Mon, 11 Dec 2006 01:23:55 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-316 Bruce, Great job that you're doing with this kind of blog entries... However, for the record, let me correct something that you wrote: "...For example, see that gateway labeled XOR? Is that a decision or a merge gateway? It can’t be both, no matter how much Appian wants it to be...." Well, I'm not sure about this, here's a quote from page 70 of the BPMN adopted spec: "A Gateway MAY have both multiple incoming and outgoing Sequence Flow." The spec is not overly clear about the meaning of gateways with multiple incoming and multiple outgoing sequence flows. But after reading pages 70-100 of the spec, I gather that such a gateway is equivalent to a composition of two gateways: a first gateway with multiple incoming flows and one outgoing flow, leading to a second gateway with one incoming and multiple outgoing flows. Bruce,

Great job that you’re doing with this kind of blog entries… However, for the record, let me correct something that you wrote:
“…For example, see that gateway labeled XOR? Is that a decision or a merge gateway? It can’t be both, no matter how much Appian wants it to be….”

Well, I’m not sure about this, here’s a quote from page 70 of the BPMN adopted spec:
“A Gateway MAY have both multiple incoming and outgoing Sequence Flow.”

The spec is not overly clear about the meaning of gateways with multiple incoming and multiple outgoing sequence flows. But after reading pages 70-100 of the spec, I gather that such a gateway is equivalent to a composition of two gateways: a first gateway with multiple incoming flows and one outgoing flow, leading to a second gateway with one incoming and multiple outgoing flows.

]]> By: BPMS Watch » Step Up to Full BPMN http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-308 BPMS Watch » Step Up to Full BPMN Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:57:23 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-308 [...] An important downside of BPMN is that it has strict rules but no standard methodology.  Each tool vendor tends to ignore the rules and assume its own methodology, based on the subset of BPMN that it implements.  The BPA vendors just support a limited piece of BPMN, and the BPMS vendors’ methodology emphasizes building the executable implementation, which is beyond where most people starting out in BPM want to go, at least immediately.  That means that while BPMN takes a quantum leap beyond traditional process modeling, business analysts are left in the dark as to how to use it correctly and effectively. [...] [...] An important downside of BPMN is that it has strict rules but no standard methodology.  Each tool vendor tends to ignore the rules and assume its own methodology, based on the subset of BPMN that it implements.  The BPA vendors just support a limited piece of BPMN, and the BPMS vendors’ methodology emphasizes building the executable implementation, which is beyond where most people starting out in BPM want to go, at least immediately.  That means that while BPMN takes a quantum leap beyond traditional process modeling, business analysts are left in the dark as to how to use it correctly and effectively. [...]

]]> By: VernonS http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-305 VernonS Sun, 03 Dec 2006 12:22:35 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/11/29/whats-wrong-with-this-picture-redux/#comment-305 Excellent analysis Bruce. Your conclusions are particularly salient: BPMN is complex, but not too complex for business analysts nor should it be too complex for BPM tool vendors to properly support in their tools, particularly those who claim such support. Nice to see you blogging again. Excellent analysis Bruce. Your conclusions are particularly salient: BPMN is complex, but not too complex for business analysts nor should it be too complex for BPM tool vendors to properly support in their tools, particularly those who claim such support.

Nice to see you blogging again.

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