Comments on: BPM on SOA: What Would It Look Like? - Part 1 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/ Bruce Silver's blog on business process management Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:41:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Haifa Wahbi http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-3305 Haifa Wahbi Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:21:31 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-3305 <strong>Haifa Wahbi...</strong> I Googled for something completely different, but found your page...and have to say thanks. nice read.... Haifa Wahbi…

I Googled for something completely different, but found your page…and have to say thanks. nice read….

]]> By: IT-eye » BPM on SOA and the role of changemanagement http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-2143 IT-eye » BPM on SOA and the role of changemanagement Thu, 02 Aug 2007 13:01:40 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-2143 [...] Bruce Silver wrote a nice post on BPM and SOA. I agree on his analysis that these 2 worlds are slowly merging. An Service Oriented Architecture will only be efficient when the business processes on top of it are efficient. It is good to see that the Oracle SOA Suite gets more and more tooling for Business Process Analysis (BPA), simulation and Business Activitity Monitoring (BAM). The tools you need for process improvement or BPM. [...] [...] Bruce Silver wrote a nice post on BPM and SOA. I agree on his analysis that these 2 worlds are slowly merging. An Service Oriented Architecture will only be efficient when the business processes on top of it are efficient. It is good to see that the Oracle SOA Suite gets more and more tooling for Business Process Analysis (BPA), simulation and Business Activitity Monitoring (BAM). The tools you need for process improvement or BPM. [...]

]]> By: Opportunities Business.net » Before making investments orembarking in his great railroad ventures, Vanderbilt http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-502 Opportunities Business.net » Before making investments orembarking in his great railroad ventures, Vanderbilt Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:21:45 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-502 [...] BPM on SOA: What Would It Look Like? - Part 1 [...] [...] BPM on SOA: What Would It Look Like? - Part 1 [...]

]]> By: rdoelen http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-324 rdoelen Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:48:04 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-324 I also believe SOA and BPM is the perfect match. I only think <a href="http://www.it-eye.nl/weblog/2006/12/13/bpm-on-soa-and-the-role-of-changemanagement/" title="changemanagement" rel="nofollow"> plays a vital role in achieving added value. What is your opion about this? I also believe SOA and BPM is the perfect match. I only think plays a vital role in achieving added value. What is your opion about this?

]]> By: Change is nothing, everything is. » More on BPM vs SOA and where BPEL fits in http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-233 Change is nothing, everything is. » More on BPM vs SOA and where BPEL fits in Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:42:39 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-233 [...] Bruce Silver has an interesting post named BPM on SOA: What would it look like? – Part 1. Here he talks about whats the differences between BPM and SOA, I will here repeat these points and add my own comments: Where BPM is topdown, SOA is more bottom-up, utilizing and exposing the already existing infrastructure, hiding the complecity and details of technology from the business layers of the enterprise architecture BPM is businessdriven, a model created by the business drives the implementation, SOA is IT-driven and there are technical architects that defines the scope -A BPM project success is measured by business metrics and KPIs. A SOA is measured by architectural metrics, ease of integration, cost of change, etc BPM is more projectoriented, where SOA is more enterprise wide infrastructure-oriented In BPM, what is reused in the processmodel, in SOA, services are reused -In BPM business processes are more hierachical, chained and nested In BPM suites concrete endpoints are used, in SOA and ESBs, abstract endpoints are used for utilizing effective protocolswitching [...] [...] Bruce Silver has an interesting post named BPM on SOA: What would it look like? – Part 1. Here he talks about whats the differences between BPM and SOA, I will here repeat these points and add my own comments: Where BPM is topdown, SOA is more bottom-up, utilizing and exposing the already existing infrastructure, hiding the complecity and details of technology from the business layers of the enterprise architecture BPM is businessdriven, a model created by the business drives the implementation, SOA is IT-driven and there are technical architects that defines the scope -A BPM project success is measured by business metrics and KPIs. A SOA is measured by architectural metrics, ease of integration, cost of change, etc BPM is more projectoriented, where SOA is more enterprise wide infrastructure-oriented In BPM, what is reused in the processmodel, in SOA, services are reused -In BPM business processes are more hierachical, chained and nested In BPM suites concrete endpoints are used, in SOA and ESBs, abstract endpoints are used for utilizing effective protocolswitching [...]

]]> By: BPMS Watch » BPEL Bashing Redux: Seeking a Middle Ground http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-230 BPMS Watch » BPEL Bashing Redux: Seeking a Middle Ground Wed, 27 Sep 2006 00:04:34 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-230 [...] But in my view, the basic fallacy of Dave’s argument relates to the difference between SOA and BPM.  Yes, orchestration is important to SOA — to create coarse-grained business services out of fine-grained services distributed over the ESB.  And orchestration is also important to BPM — to create end-to-end business processes by orchestrating business services and human tasks.  But BPM is not SOA, and business services are not what BPM means by business processes.  [...] [...] But in my view, the basic fallacy of Dave’s argument relates to the difference between SOA and BPM.  Yes, orchestration is important to SOA — to create coarse-grained business services out of fine-grained services distributed over the ESB.  And orchestration is also important to BPM — to create end-to-end business processes by orchestrating business services and human tasks.  But BPM is not SOA, and business services are not what BPM means by business processes.  [...]

]]> By: BPMS Watch » Architecture for Dummies http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-196 BPMS Watch » Architecture for Dummies Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:51:08 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-196 [...] Normally when the Ayn Rand references start flying, I head for cover.  But since Phil Gilbert’s rant on the futility of foisting an SOA primer on naive business managers tracked back to my post on what BPM on SOA would look like, I guess I’m obligated to say something.  Phil’s nominal beef is with the mere idea of a book called SOA for Dummies, which commits the sin (in his eyes) of equating SOA with web services and ESBs.  The deeper issue, however, seems to be misappropriation by the SOA community of a value proposition that really belongs to something called Business Architecture, things like business-IT alignment, agility, reuse, etc.  Business architecture, from his description of it, looks at business and IT together as an “organic” whole (with a slight top-down business-oriented perspective), rather than starting with IT infrastructure and then seeing what you can build on it.  [...] [...] Normally when the Ayn Rand references start flying, I head for cover.  But since Phil Gilbert’s rant on the futility of foisting an SOA primer on naive business managers tracked back to my post on what BPM on SOA would look like, I guess I’m obligated to say something.  Phil’s nominal beef is with the mere idea of a book called SOA for Dummies, which commits the sin (in his eyes) of equating SOA with web services and ESBs.  The deeper issue, however, seems to be misappropriation by the SOA community of a value proposition that really belongs to something called Business Architecture, things like business-IT alignment, agility, reuse, etc.  Business architecture, from his description of it, looks at business and IT together as an “organic” whole (with a slight top-down business-oriented perspective), rather than starting with IT infrastructure and then seeing what you can build on it.  [...]

]]> By: Phil Gilbert | Perspectives in Process http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-195 Phil Gilbert | Perspectives in Process Wed, 30 Aug 2006 04:42:26 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-195 <strong>Business Architecture is not for Dummies...</strong> SOA is a means to make sense of the complex IT assets - a way to manage them and package them - so that "the business" can more easily consume them.... The IT assets that will be maintained by IT (or, more and more, that will be available as a host... Business Architecture is not for Dummies…

SOA is a means to make sense of the complex IT assets - a way to manage them and package them - so that “the business” can more easily consume them…. The IT assets that will be maintained by IT (or, more and more, that will be available as a host…

]]> By: bruce http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-193 bruce Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:51:26 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-193 Great question, aa. In standard SOA, such services would be opaque and stateless, so BPM's reporting/monitoring would know when they were invoked and when/how they completed, but the internal state of in-process instances would be invisible. Jesper suggested that the new Business Process Runtime Interface in OMG would be the way to get that internal state info back into BPM. I'm not sure if that's the BPRI group's idea of how it would work or just Jesper's fantasy. OMG people, if you're lurking, please chime in with the answer! Great question, aa. In standard SOA, such services would be opaque and stateless, so BPM’s reporting/monitoring would know when they were invoked and when/how they completed, but the internal state of in-process instances would be invisible. Jesper suggested that the new Business Process Runtime Interface in OMG would be the way to get that internal state info back into BPM. I’m not sure if that’s the BPRI group’s idea of how it would work or just Jesper’s fantasy. OMG people, if you’re lurking, please chime in with the answer!

]]> By: aa http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-192 aa Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:07:13 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/08/21/bpm-on-soa-what-would-it-look-like-part-1/#comment-192 How do you envision Reporting to work in such an architecture, where each "Service" has its own state/data, and the BPMS is also collecting/showing data. How can this whole system operate without a fully integrated reporting solution? and where would such a solution fit in and what would it look like? How do you envision Reporting to work in such an architecture, where each “Service” has its own state/data, and the BPMS is also collecting/showing data. How can this whole system operate without a fully integrated reporting solution? and where would such a solution fit in and what would it look like?

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