Comments on: BPM on SOA: Still the Exception http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/ Bruce Silver's blog on business process management Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:22:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: BPMS Watch » BPM on SOA Explained at Last! http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/comment-page-1/#comment-134 BPMS Watch » BPM on SOA Explained at Last! Thu, 06 Jul 2006 01:38:36 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/#comment-134 [...] I think I know quite a bit about BPM, and while I can’t say the same about SOA yet, I’m trying hard to learn.  Still, I already know enough to say that when a BPMS vendor talks about how his product is based on SOA, he’s not talking about the same SOA that the real SOA guys are selling.  Including things like loose coupling, supposedly a foundational SOA concept.  Nobody talks about it, it blows my mind!  And 99.9% of what is written about the intersection of BPM and SOA is either irrelevant or plain incorrect. [...] [...] I think I know quite a bit about BPM, and while I can’t say the same about SOA yet, I’m trying hard to learn.  Still, I already know enough to say that when a BPMS vendor talks about how his product is based on SOA, he’s not talking about the same SOA that the real SOA guys are selling.  Including things like loose coupling, supposedly a foundational SOA concept.  Nobody talks about it, it blows my mind!  And 99.9% of what is written about the intersection of BPM and SOA is either irrelevant or plain incorrect. [...]

]]> By: Richard Veryard SOAPbox http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/comment-page-1/#comment-131 Richard Veryard SOAPbox Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:40:01 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/#comment-131 <strong>BPM and SOA 2...</strong> The separation between Inside/Outside (or Private/Public) is of course a crucial element of the component/service story. The belly of the whale is a metaphor for encapsulation. In Frye's version, BPM is on the inside and SOA is on the outside. From a ... BPM and SOA 2…

The separation between Inside/Outside (or Private/Public) is of course a crucial element of the component/service story. The belly of the whale is a metaphor for encapsulation. In Frye’s version, BPM is on the inside and SOA is on the outside. From a …

]]> By: bruce http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/comment-page-1/#comment-114 bruce Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:22:07 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/#comment-114 Derek, I don't think I've been brainwashed by IBM, Cordys, and webMethods, if that's what you're saying. It's more like I've been struggling for a while trying to understand why attendees at the Brainstorm BPM conference and the SOA conference in the next room have so little to say to each other, i.e what really is the relationship between BPM and ESB (and all the other SOA goodies). I just put out how I've made sense of it, and so far no one's said I'm wrong. Sure, BPMS pureplays may say "loose coupling" as part of their SOA shtick, but please expand on what that means. As I explained it in the post, it means the logical-to-physical mapping happens in the ESB not in the process model. Conceptually that computes for me, although I noted the problem with it (logic is split into 2 places). If that's not correct, please set me straight. --Bruce Derek,
I don’t think I’ve been brainwashed by IBM, Cordys, and webMethods, if that’s what you’re saying. It’s more like I’ve been struggling for a while trying to understand why attendees at the Brainstorm BPM conference and the SOA conference in the next room have so little to say to each other, i.e what really is the relationship between BPM and ESB (and all the other SOA goodies). I just put out how I’ve made sense of it, and so far no one’s said I’m wrong. Sure, BPMS pureplays may say “loose coupling” as part of their SOA shtick, but please expand on what that means. As I explained it in the post, it means the logical-to-physical mapping happens in the ESB not in the process model. Conceptually that computes for me, although I noted the problem with it (logic is split into 2 places). If that’s not correct, please set me straight.
–Bruce

]]> By: bruce http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/comment-page-1/#comment-113 bruce Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:13:50 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/#comment-113 Chris, Ric... Either of you may be right about Microsoft. I wouldn't really know. It's hard to cover a company that won't let you talk to anyone but the PR agency. I've about given up on breaking through the MS information shield. In Colbert's words, Microsoft, you're "on notice." --Bruce Chris, Ric…
Either of you may be right about Microsoft. I wouldn’t really know. It’s hard to cover a company that won’t let you talk to anyone but the PR agency. I’ve about given up on breaking through the MS information shield. In Colbert’s words, Microsoft, you’re “on notice.”
–Bruce

]]> By: ric.hayman http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/comment-page-1/#comment-112 ric.hayman Tue, 20 Jun 2006 12:13:58 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/#comment-112 I'd like to hear more of that MS end-to-end BPM/SOA/ESB - it's news to me ... I’d like to hear more of that MS end-to-end BPM/SOA/ESB – it’s news to me …

]]> By: Derek Miers http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/comment-page-1/#comment-111 Derek Miers Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:48:47 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/#comment-111 Not sure I 100% agree with you Bruce. Looks like since you started asking about the difference between BPMS and ESBs, someone gave you a bit of religeon (the ESB side of the equation). I wonder who that might have been ... I don't really understand how you can say that a modern BPMS does not support "loose coupling" ... well I suppose you didnt exactly say that, you just implied it. I hear plenty of BPMS vendors talking about loose coupling ... it is just a question of who you ask. Also, I would regard that concept as a design goal of good process design, rather than an inherent capability of the underlying infrastructure. Not sure I 100% agree with you Bruce. Looks like since you started asking about the difference between BPMS and ESBs, someone gave you a bit of religeon (the ESB side of the equation). I wonder who that might have been …

I don’t really understand how you can say that a modern BPMS does not support “loose coupling” … well I suppose you didnt exactly say that, you just implied it. I hear plenty of BPMS vendors talking about loose coupling … it is just a question of who you ask. Also, I would regard that concept as a design goal of good process design, rather than an inherent capability of the underlying infrastructure.

]]> By: Christof http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/comment-page-1/#comment-110 Christof Tue, 20 Jun 2006 07:35:12 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/#comment-110 Indeed nice article, but I'm stunned to see that Microsoft again is not included in the discussion. They have an end-to-end BPM/SOA/ESB solution with the complete loose coupling and service orientation as discussed. It's time to start comparing them to the other vendors too. Keep up the good work! Chris Indeed nice article, but I’m stunned to see that Microsoft again is not included in the discussion. They have an end-to-end BPM/SOA/ESB solution with the complete loose coupling and service orientation as discussed. It’s time to start comparing them to the other vendors too. Keep up the good work! Chris

]]> By: aydh http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/comment-page-1/#comment-108 aydh Tue, 20 Jun 2006 01:35:56 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/19/bpm-on-soa-still-the-exception/#comment-108 Nice article - I reckon you might want to include TIBCO in your list of those vendors providing BPM over SOA now... Nice article – I reckon you might want to include TIBCO in your list of those vendors providing BPM over SOA now…

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