Comments on: The Phony “War” Between BPM and SOA http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/ Bruce Silver's blog on business process management Fri, 05 Sep 2008 13:50:09 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Richard Veryard SOAPbox http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-132 Richard Veryard SOAPbox Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:41:24 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-132 <strong>BPM and SOA 2...</strong> The separation between Inside/Outside (or Private/Public) is of course a crucial element of the component/service story. The belly of the whale is a metaphor for encapsulation. In Frye's version, BPM is on the inside and SOA is on the outside. From a ... BPM and SOA 2…

The separation between Inside/Outside (or Private/Public) is of course a crucial element of the component/service story. The belly of the whale is a metaphor for encapsulation. In Frye’s version, BPM is on the inside and SOA is on the outside. From a …

]]> By: Go Flow » Blog Archive » BPM Philosophy, not Technology http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-121 Go Flow » Blog Archive » BPM Philosophy, not Technology Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:48:06 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-121 [...] The above definition is consistent with Bruce Silver's comments in The Phony “War” Between BPM and SOA. I completely agree with Bruce that BPM and SOA are natural allies, not enemies. SOA is quite simply about how you structure your enterprise application, and that you use open standard protocols to link the pieces. SOA says nothing about having a business-relevant model, or which philosophical approach you take to building your application. SOA is another one of those things that BPM is not. Yet, BPM and SOA are perfectly compatible for developing applications that help people to coordinate their work and make their organization more efficient and effective. [...] [...] The above definition is consistent with Bruce Silver's comments in The Phony “War” Between BPM and SOA. I completely agree with Bruce that BPM and SOA are natural allies, not enemies. SOA is quite simply about how you structure your enterprise application, and that you use open standard protocols to link the pieces. SOA says nothing about having a business-relevant model, or which philosophical approach you take to building your application. SOA is another one of those things that BPM is not. Yet, BPM and SOA are perfectly compatible for developing applications that help people to coordinate their work and make their organization more efficient and effective. [...]

]]> By: Shane Pearson http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-101 Shane Pearson Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:07:19 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-101 Yes, I can tell from the questions I have been asked the last couple months that IT is confused by what exactly is meant by BPM, BPMS, etc. Business people also can be confused or even stop you mid-stream when they hear you say SOA as many times it is not relevant to their view of what they require. This of course is the result of the industry being in the middle of a transition to the next wave of products and solutions and the differing views on what is complimentary and how customers will best achieve success. And of course people also seem to forget that people buy "products" that implement standards and not just standards. I think Brainstorm should have let you keep the original title and then given you the opportunity to explain where BPEL, XPDL, BPMN and other standards are being used for BPM, Orchestrating Services, etc. Yes, I can tell from the questions I have been asked the last couple months that IT is confused by what exactly is meant by BPM, BPMS, etc. Business people also can be confused or even stop you mid-stream when they hear you say SOA as many times it is not relevant to their view of what they require. This of course is the result of the industry being in the middle of a transition to the next wave of products and solutions and the differing views on what is complimentary and how customers will best achieve success. And of course people also seem to forget that people buy “products” that implement standards and not just standards. I think Brainstorm should have let you keep the original title and then given you the opportunity to explain where BPEL, XPDL, BPMN and other standards are being used for BPM, Orchestrating Services, etc.

]]> By: BPMS Watch » My Top-Down Dinner Bet http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-100 BPMS Watch » My Top-Down Dinner Bet Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:27:05 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-100 [...] Don’t ask me how, but Ismael turned the hubbub over BPM vs SOA into a discussion of top-down vs “middle-out.”  Both threads (including comments) are semi-instructive, but somehow in the course of things he challenged me to come up with proof that top-down (i.e. BPM implementation driven from the business model) has ever worked.  The challenge came in the form of a double-dog dare, with the promise of a trip to Hawaii tacked on if I could come up with 3 top-down implementations that met his “BPM 2.0″ qualifiiers.  Doubting he was good for the Maui deal, I reduced it to a simple dinner bet, so now we both have some skin in the game. [...] [...] Don’t ask me how, but Ismael turned the hubbub over BPM vs SOA into a discussion of top-down vs “middle-out.”  Both threads (including comments) are semi-instructive, but somehow in the course of things he challenged me to come up with proof that top-down (i.e. BPM implementation driven from the business model) has ever worked.  The challenge came in the form of a double-dog dare, with the promise of a trip to Hawaii tacked on if I could come up with 3 top-down implementations that met his “BPM 2.0″ qualifiiers.  Doubting he was good for the Maui deal, I reduced it to a simple dinner bet, so now we both have some skin in the game. [...]

]]> By: bruce http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-99 bruce Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:16:43 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-99 Shane, I agree with you, but here is an interesting data point on the state of the market (or should I say markets) today. Brainstorm has a series of colocated BPM and SOA conferences. I give my standard BPMS talk at the BPM conference and this year proposed a separate talk on "Building BPM Solutions Using SOA and BPEL" for the SOA conference. But the head of Brainstorm said that would be too confusing for the SOA audience so I had to change it to "Orchestrating Services with BPEL." Shane,
I agree with you, but here is an interesting data point on the state of the market (or should I say markets) today. Brainstorm has a series of colocated BPM and SOA conferences. I give my standard BPMS talk at the BPM conference and this year proposed a separate talk on “Building BPM Solutions Using SOA and BPEL” for the SOA conference. But the head of Brainstorm said that would be too confusing for the SOA audience so I had to change it to “Orchestrating Services with BPEL.”

]]> By: Shane Pearson http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-98 Shane Pearson Wed, 07 Jun 2006 07:01:36 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-98 Bruce, Those are interesting articles and I think your comments bring a good perspective on the some of the right issues, and I would add: • SOA and BPM are complimentary. SOA empowers IT by making it more agile to support business requirements today, and in the future. BPM empowers the business by giving it the right tools to fully participate in the definition, creation and management of process centric applications and services. • In some areas, IT has miss-perceptions about BPM based on earlier generations of products where various limitations existed, such as they were great on modeling, but did not provide a way to use the model as the way to generate a process based application for deployment and execution, etc. Many people need to understand that the current generation of BPMS products are not only “safe”, but can accelerate the ability for companies to reach the benefits of a service oriented architecture approach. • A major value of today’s BPMS products is that IT really appreciates the concept of a model driven approach where a shared process model reinforces architectural best practices (i.e. service reusability, process templates, etc). Meanwhile, the Business really appreciates the collaborative environment BPMS products foster so that they can fully participate in the definition, creation and management of processes that drive the completion of work tasks across people and systems while providing visibility into business performance and optimization opportunities. Obviously, at BEA we are providing customers support for both BPM and SOA with our products and solutions. We see these are highly complementary in helping customers be better aligned to reach their current business objectives and the ones they will have in the future which they do not even know about today. Seems like the headlines should be more about “Understanding how to leverage BPM and SOA” Bruce,
Those are interesting articles and I think your comments bring a good perspective on the some of the right issues, and I would add:
• SOA and BPM are complimentary. SOA empowers IT by making it more agile to support business requirements today, and in the future. BPM empowers the business by giving it the right tools to fully participate in the definition, creation and management of process centric applications and services.
• In some areas, IT has miss-perceptions about BPM based on earlier generations of products where various limitations existed, such as they were great on modeling, but did not provide a way to use the model as the way to generate a process based application for deployment and execution, etc. Many people need to understand that the current generation of BPMS products are not only “safe”, but can accelerate the ability for companies to reach the benefits of a service oriented architecture approach.
• A major value of today’s BPMS products is that IT really appreciates the concept of a model driven approach where a shared process model reinforces architectural best practices (i.e. service reusability, process templates, etc). Meanwhile, the Business really appreciates the collaborative environment BPMS products foster so that they can fully participate in the definition, creation and management of processes that drive the completion of work tasks across people and systems while providing visibility into business performance and optimization opportunities.

Obviously, at BEA we are providing customers support for both BPM and SOA with our products and solutions. We see these are highly complementary in helping customers be better aligned to reach their current business objectives and the ones they will have in the future which they do not even know about today. Seems like the headlines should be more about “Understanding how to leverage BPM and SOA”

]]> By: » BPM and SOA need each other | Service-Oriented Architecture | ZDNet.com http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-97 » BPM and SOA need each other | Service-Oriented Architecture | ZDNet.com Tue, 06 Jun 2006 21:03:08 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-97 [...] Bruce Silver recently weighed in on the matter, noting that there is, in reality, little tension between the two disciplines, which, while converging, have distinctly different roles to play: "Agility is important, and SOA is all about agility, but agility is really IT’s concern and not the central focus of business executives, nor is dealing with change the key objective of BPM.  Better aligning processes with business goals; making processes faster, more efficient, and more reliably compliant with policies and best practices; making business performance more visible even when the process crosses organizational or system boundaries, and more actionable in real time… these are just as important as agility to business." [...] [...] Bruce Silver recently weighed in on the matter, noting that there is, in reality, little tension between the two disciplines, which, while converging, have distinctly different roles to play: "Agility is important, and SOA is all about agility, but agility is really IT’s concern and not the central focus of business executives, nor is dealing with change the key objective of BPM.  Better aligning processes with business goals; making processes faster, more efficient, and more reliably compliant with policies and best practices; making business performance more visible even when the process crosses organizational or system boundaries, and more actionable in real time… these are just as important as agility to business." [...]

]]> By: James Taylor http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-96 James Taylor Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:46:58 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-96 I think the argument about who should do this, the business or IT, miss the point. The value comes from technologies that let the business and IT collaborate to solve the organization's problems. BPM, SOA, business rules all require some technical infrastructure and know-how <b>and</b> some business expertise and drive. If both sides would just admit that they can't do the other's job and figure out how to work together we would make faster progress! I think the argument about who should do this, the business or IT, miss the point. The value comes from technologies that let the business and IT collaborate to solve the organization’s problems. BPM, SOA, business rules all require some technical infrastructure and know-how and some business expertise and drive. If both sides would just admit that they can’t do the other’s job and figure out how to work together we would make faster progress!

]]> By: Phil Gilbert | Perspectives in Process http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-95 Phil Gilbert | Perspectives in Process Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:52:06 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-95 <strong>Zero-Sum Thinking...</strong> Kudos to Bruce Silver for an even-handed response to the "SOA vs. BPM" debate that's sure to capture some blog readers, but unfortunately do not clarify the issue for thoughtful people (see Christopher Koch at cio.com and Joe McKendrick at... Zero-Sum Thinking…

Kudos to Bruce Silver for an even-handed response to the “SOA vs. BPM” debate that’s sure to capture some blog readers, but unfortunately do not clarify the issue for thoughtful people (see Christopher Koch at cio.com and Joe McKendrick at…

]]> By: Derek Miers http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-94 Derek Miers Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:22:14 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/wordpress/2006/06/05/the-phony-war-between-bpm-and-soa/#comment-94 You are right Bruce - I am planning on blogging a bit when I get my act together (once I get back from "holiday"). I explored the whole notion of the relationship between BPM and SOA in a white paper (available FOC at www.enix.co.uk) ... I am not trying to advertise my stuff ... no doubt I shall get down to my blogging in the coming weeks. But hey - who appointed these "experts". Seems to me they are part of the spin machine that is trying to put BPM back in the IT bottle (which would suit some of the big SOA based vendors). But the genie is out of the bottle, with business people taking the lead on driving change in their businesses. It was refreshing to meet a few business people at BPM Think Tank who really do "get it". Not only are they getting it, they are using it to drive massive improvements in performance within their businesses). You are right Bruce - I am planning on blogging a bit when I get my act together (once I get back from “holiday”). I explored the whole notion of the relationship between BPM and SOA in a white paper (available FOC at http://www.enix.co.uk) … I am not trying to advertise my stuff … no doubt I shall get down to my blogging in the coming weeks.

But hey - who appointed these “experts”. Seems to me they are part of the spin machine that is trying to put BPM back in the IT bottle (which would suit some of the big SOA based vendors).

But the genie is out of the bottle, with business people taking the lead on driving change in their businesses. It was refreshing to meet a few business people at BPM Think Tank who really do “get it”. Not only are they getting it, they are using it to drive massive improvements in performance within their businesses).

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