Comments on: BPM's Top-Down Path to SOA http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/ Bruce Silver on business process management Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:38:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: James Taylor http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/comment-page-1/#comment-62 James Taylor Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:53:24 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/br#comment-62 Bruce, it is indeed more common for the business to start the process - typically by saying they need a certain decision automated in a way that allows them to manage it effectively. When such a decision has lots of rules, complex rules, rules that change a lot or rules that can only really be understood by someone with specific non-IT expertise, a BRMS is often how the business or someone in IT will suggest it be implemented. What we do notice is that IT is often the group that comes back and says "wow, we have lots of decisions like this, maybe we should do this on a broader basis" and drives an enterprise policy hub or enterprise decisioning backbone choice. Once that choice is made we do see some "bottom-up" use of business rules. I wrote a post on how rules empower collaboration <a href="http://edmblog.fairisaac.com/weblog/2006/03/business_and_it.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Bruce, it is indeed more common for the business to start the process – typically by saying they need a certain decision automated in a way that allows them to manage it effectively. When such a decision has lots of rules, complex rules, rules that change a lot or rules that can only really be understood by someone with specific non-IT expertise, a BRMS is often how the business or someone in IT will suggest it be implemented.
What we do notice is that IT is often the group that comes back and says “wow, we have lots of decisions like this, maybe we should do this on a broader basis” and drives an enterprise policy hub or enterprise decisioning backbone choice. Once that choice is made we do see some “bottom-up” use of business rules.
I wrote a post on how rules empower collaboration here.

]]> By: dgreenst http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/comment-page-1/#comment-61 dgreenst Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:53:22 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/br#comment-61 Over the years working on business processes for multiple companies (first at a major manufacturing company for many years and later as a consultant) I came to realization, that company?s business processes are driven and direct derivative of the business model. Second, the business model by itself is dependent on the market it servers and is getting dynamic and constantly undergoing changes and modifications (evolving) Thus, we do not have a ?reference point? for the start of the BPM development. I agree with you that BPM is ?top-down and business driven? approach. But the BPM is much more complex as a result of the world-wide connected business eco-system, the dynamic nature of the market (and getting faster every year), the unpredictability of the market affects on the business model (causality affect). The next point to mention is that the processes are also required to imbed ?dynamic flexibility? to have the additional capabilities to rapidly re-align to a new business model. All this requires a more advance approach and tools that can execute the approach. I have done some work and got very interesting results. I believe the most difficult in the BPM is to achieve the ideas of business agility. Even more complexity is coming as a result of world-wide integration of the business eco-system and distributed multi-national nature of many companies. But the idea of Business Process Management is very important for the future of all companies. In reality, there is very little monitoring and control over the Business Processes at the current state of affairs. However, the future will require rigorous monitoring and control over the BP. There where the BPM 3.0 (not a mistake) will come into play. I would like to see the continuous evolution of the methodology and the tools. Over the years working on business processes for multiple companies (first at a major manufacturing company for many years and later as a consultant) I came to realization, that company?s business processes are driven and direct derivative of the business model. Second, the business model by itself is dependent on the market it servers and is getting dynamic and constantly undergoing changes and modifications (evolving) Thus, we do not have a ?reference point? for the start of the BPM development. I agree with you that BPM is ?top-down and business driven? approach. But the BPM is much more complex as a result of the world-wide connected business eco-system, the dynamic nature of the market (and getting faster every year), the unpredictability of the market affects on the business model (causality affect). The next point to mention is that the processes are also required to imbed ?dynamic flexibility? to have the additional capabilities to rapidly re-align to a new business model. All this requires a more advance approach and tools that can execute the approach.

I have done some work and got very interesting results. I believe the most difficult in the BPM is to achieve the ideas of business agility. Even more complexity is coming as a result of world-wide integration of the business eco-system and distributed multi-national nature of many companies. But the idea of Business Process Management is very important for the future of all companies. In reality, there is very little monitoring and control over the Business Processes at the current state of affairs. However, the future will require rigorous monitoring and control over the BP. There where the BPM 3.0 (not a mistake) will come into play. I would like to see the continuous evolution of the methodology and the tools.

]]> By: erhum http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/comment-page-1/#comment-60 erhum Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:27:34 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/br#comment-60 Bruce - been lurking on your blog for a little while, thinking I must get around to starting one of these but have just been too snowed under with other things. One of the other things I have in the works is an extensive analysis and suggested methodology for just that - BPM-SOA from a top down pov. No doubt you will enjoy it. Hopefully I will get it out somehow next week (but as it is a sponsored piece, I will have to wait for the sponsor to think about how they want to use it). Keep up the good work Derek Miers PS - hope to see you at BPM Think Tank in 6 weeks or so Bruce – been lurking on your blog for a little while, thinking I must get around to starting one of these but have just been too snowed under with other things.

One of the other things I have in the works is an extensive analysis and suggested methodology for just that – BPM-SOA from a top down pov. No doubt you will enjoy it. Hopefully I will get it out somehow next week (but as it is a sponsored piece, I will have to wait for the sponsor to think about how they want to use it). Keep up the good work

Derek Miers

PS – hope to see you at BPM Think Tank in 6 weeks or so

]]> By: bruce http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/comment-page-1/#comment-59 bruce Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:28:29 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/br#comment-59 Interesting point, James. You'd know better than I, but it seems that business rules could be a useful reference point for business-IT alignment and a way through the impasse. I mean, you don't have IT saying let's codify all the decision logic in our key apps as business rules and when we're done we'll ask the business which ones they need. Isn't it much more common for the business to say these are the rules we need implemented first in a BRMS, and then IT goes and does it? Assuming that model works, the business should say, OK let's do services the same way. Interesting point, James. You’d know better than I, but it seems that business rules could be a useful reference point for business-IT alignment and a way through the impasse. I mean, you don’t have IT saying let’s codify all the decision logic in our key apps as business rules and when we’re done we’ll ask the business which ones they need. Isn’t it much more common for the business to say these are the rules we need implemented first in a BRMS, and then IT goes and does it? Assuming that model works, the business should say, OK let’s do services the same way.

]]> By: James Taylor http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/comment-page-1/#comment-58 James Taylor Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:10:23 +0000 http://www.brsilver.com/2006/04/07/bpms-top-down-path-to-soa/br#comment-58 While I think BPM and SOA are reinforcing concepts I do agree that they are different. Your point about needing to get started and work iteratively is also well taken. I see business rules getting used both to provide decisioning in business processes and to develop decision services (these being the same if you are using BPM and SOA together). Do you think business rules provide a possible "tie" between the two approaches for some? While I think BPM and SOA are reinforcing concepts I do agree that they are different. Your point about needing to get started and work iteratively is also well taken.
I see business rules getting used both to provide decisioning in business processes and to develop decision services (these being the same if you are using BPM and SOA together). Do you think business rules provide a possible “tie” between the two approaches for some?

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